Principal responds to “The Vagina Monologues” controversy
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- March
- 6
John Jay High School Principal Rich Leprine sent me the following statement just a few minutes ago in response to “The Vagina Monologues” controversy that has developed in his school. Click “here”:http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070306/NEWS02/703060363/1209 to read the full story from The Journal News, or scroll down this blog to read comments students and community members have posted about the administration’s decision to suspend three female students for saying the word “vaginaâ€? during an open mic session Friday night. Stay tuned for more on this story as it unfolds.
March 6, 2007
Dear JJ Community Members:
I appreciate the concerns expressed by students and parents over the monologue issue that occurred last Friday night at the “Open Mic Night.�
John Jay High School recognizes and respects student freedom of expression in the context of the school setting. That right, however, is not unfettered, particularly when an activity or event is open to the general school community where it is expected that young children may be in attendance. The challenge is to balance the rights of student speakers and the sensitivities of the community. The School’s response to that challenge was to pre-audition the students before several faculty members for the “Open Mic Night� and to determine the suitability of the intended presentations for the audience. In many cases, younger siblings, often elementary age, attend these types of events. This event was also being videotaped for the local cable television channel.
When a student is told by faculty members not to present specified material because of the composition of the audience and they agree to do so, it is expected that the commitment will be honored and the directive will be followed. When a student chooses not to follow the directive, consequences follow. The students did not receive consequences because of the content of the presentation.
There is a clear difference between putting on a production of a play such as “The Vagina Monologues� and an open performance at the microphone of an excerpt from the play before unsuspecting parents and their children. In the first case, the community would have been aware of the nature of the production and could have made an educated decision to attend or not to attend based upon that knowledge. In the case of the “Open Mic Night,� the community was invited with the expectation that the pieces presented would be appropriate for the general community, including younger children. Parents and community members did not have the ability to make an educated decision about the appropriateness of the content of the presentations for younger children.
There is also a clear difference between what is read and discussed in the classroom and what is presented in an activity open to the entire community. Our judgment was guided by the forum, the audience and the students’ commitment. Our decision was made in a considered, careful and thoughtful manner.
Sincerely,
Rich Leprine
Principal, JJHS
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on Tuesday, March 6th, 2007 at 11:38 am by Diana Costello.
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Dear Sir, I was shocked to read about this incident. What you are doing is clearly, let me repeat, CLEARLY blatant censorship of your students right to speak freely. Besides which, what is there wrong with the word “vagina”? It isnt as though they used the words “cunt”, or “pussy”, which might be considered inappropriate for such a setting. They used the completely politically correct and appropriate word, the biological term for the female genitalia. Being worried about small children hearing this word is akin to worrying whether they might hear the word “knee”, or “eyeball”. Under no circumstances would I continue to try defending your position if I were you. Your school and your actions in this situation haven’t got a moral, or constitutional leg to stand on. I hope that the school will in fact issue an apology over this absolutely wretched treatment of these rather brave and idealistic girls.
I would like to commend Principal Rich Leprine and his administration for dealing with student insubordination. These students were told not to read this passage but chose to any way. They and everyone else should accept their punishment and move on-end of story. Mr. Leprine was protecting the image of his school and the community from something that could have been offensive to anyone in attendence of the reading. None of this would be happening if the students respected the administration. Leprine has my complete backing.
Dear God, William. You entirely miss the point. The open mic night was clearly not, let me repeat, NOT a right. The school had every right to review content and censor it appropriately. The Vagina Monologues is clearly adult material and not intended for audiences of elementary aged skulls full of mush. These girls a) made an agreement that they openly disregarded and b) were reading copyrighted material and not expressing an original thought. They did it specifically to provoke a reaction, the consequences of which was their ‘in-school’ suspension – nothing that a shot of Nyquil can’t make go by in a jiffy. I’m pretty certain that if they decided that they wanted to say a prayer that the administrators would have censored that, but there would be no such outcry for restricting their freedom of speech and religion.
Good for them, knowing they would be punished (I happen to believe in an extreme manner for said insubordination) for stirring up such an incredible dialog and making a very good point. If they had been reprimanded and a letter sent home to their parents, chances are we wouldn’t all be commenting on it here.
It’s foolish for the punisher to think of what righteous lesson he may be teaching these girls (or placating parents and in that case, who is he best serving?) in their “separate in-school suspensions” instead of having them attend their classes and perhaps opening intelligent, reasonable dialog up to students, parents, teachers, and school counselors…no, that could never be “educational”, could it?
My hat is off to these girls, to their fellow students in protest of the punitive action…and to the administrative powers that be who stirred up the poop on this one! Can you say “backfire”? You and all those parents and teachers and politicians who support you should be ashamed of yourselves.
That’s right…try to teach kids that there is no appropriate use for a technical anatomical word…it’s technically correct to use whether a person is 4 or 94…not a hoo-hoo or a peach or “down there”! How ridiculous! It’s not dirty, it’s just anatomy…you are the ones giving it so much power…how dare anyone say it in mixed company.
I’m a nurse. I document status, history, progress, etc. in medical records. I can refer to a nose, a liver, a vagina, a toenail…to these “responsible” adults: please stop promoting IGNORANCE and SHAME!
...and I truly doubt a reading (or singing) of the Lord’s Prayer would have been restricted. It shouldn’t be…it would seem to possibly just project someone’s own perspective on Open Mic night.
Oh my, the children, we must protect the children from a perfectly appropriate word used to describe part of a woman’s anatomy. Are we not allowed to say ‘breast’ or ‘buttocks’, or, heaven forbid… ‘penis’ in the presence of a child?
No matter what reason the Mr. Rich Leprine or the adminstration offers to justify their decision to suspend these young women, it all comes down to censorship, pure and simple.
Good point Deanna, I agree fully. How is a woman to appropriately describe that part of her anatomy if she can’t even use the word ‘vagina’. Is a woman supposed to point down there and say “you know, the tubular tract leading from the uterus to the exterior of the body” when talking about her vagina?
I’m all for sensitivity when choosing language when around young children, however, this puritanical reasoning is absurd.
Oh 914…
If we can’t use “vagina”, are we allowed to use “uterus”? (Maybe we have to say womb…or the cabbage patch…or stork’s nest…or “another reproductive organ which shall remain nameless”.)
Stork’s nest, I like that one. Let’s rewrite the health and sex education books to use that term instead.
I agree that insubordination took place, and that the school has the right to punish these students for that insubordination.
Here’s the problem: suspensions are meted out with the specific intention of remedying unacceptable behavior. It seems clear that these girls feel strongly that they are in the right and therefore this punishment is ineffective. Further, free speech rights within a school are limited based on the more urgent and appropriate need for uninterrupted education to take place. The resulting protests, t-shirts, blogs, Face Book group, etc. indicates that the suspensions have done more to hinder learning than the girls did with their original act of insubordination.
The administration ahs the right to censor its students and should not shy away from the reality that it did so. While the suspension is about insubordination and not censorship, the original act by school administration to insist that the girls not use the word vagina absolutely was censorship. Denying that at this point makes the administration look like liars focused on a CYA scramble.
There have been many times in history when the decision to follow an order from a superior or to ignore it has come at a key turning point. It seemed clear to the students in question that the order they had been given was an inappropriate one, so they chose to disobey that order. While I am comfortable with the students facing a consequence for their decision, I am hesitant to give a blanket pardon to the school administration here. The unfortunate (and hopefully unintended) result is a chill effect on free thought. I apologize for prooving Godwin’s Law true… but remember that blind obedience to orders without room for individual thought was critical to the success of the Nazi regime in Germany.
I don;t say this in order to compare this school administration to an evil dictatorship. But the metaphor is apt… schools that reign in free thought to protect the sensitivities of the few are a danger to the whole. Public schools have the infrastructure to touch the hearts and minds of a vast majority of any generation of children. The more we limit free thought and freeexpression in these halls, the more likely it becomes that schools can become propaganda factorie, telling the next generation how to think. Don’t believe it can work? Then why did the Nazi Party government require all children to be members of Hitler Youth? An extreme example, yes, but it’s why we need to keep free thought in schools.
Lighten up. There are more than 3.1 billion vaginas in the human population. And that’s ok to say.
Fish,
Felicitously said.
Hey Fish, schools are already propaganda factories for the left in this country. Don’t believe it? Just pick up any of the communist rags delivered by the teachers’ unions. The true life lesson here for these kids is that you can’t always get what you want and when authority tells you not to do something, you just simply don’t do it. Test my theory. Go to work tomorrow and openly defy your boss or a policy that you think is just plain dumb. See how long you last.
Nick,
Are you truly that ignorant or do you just like the sound of your own voice. Unless I work for a government agency, my employer is private-no freedom of speech. A public school on the other hand, is not, Constitution applies.
This whole argument about “insubordination” is a crock of excrement. It is a term that every principal has used when they are not smart enough to come up with a logical and supportable argument.
Erik,
Ignorance is not a difference of your opinion.
But since you supplied an argument, I’ll offer you this: Any branch of the military is a government agency. Freedom of speech doesn’t necessarily apply. Ask any drill instructor.
Insubordination is not a crock. I have to ask your age here. Because as I read through the countless posts on these blogs, I’m trying to figure out when it became the job of adults to defend teenagers’ open defiance of authority. 32, in case you were wondering. As a teacher, my wife deals with parents daily that defend similar idiotic actions of their children and it’s just mind-boggling that they side with their children first and not the teacher.
That’s the Military. A school is a place f HIGHER learning. in other words you are supposed to learn all there is about academia. I went to 8 years of parochial school where i wasnt allowed to read certain books but i went to local library and got them anyway. e.g. Catcher in the rye. of mice and men.. etc. i was in 6th grade.
Granted i dont believe one should go against the rules but when the rule is wrong you go against it. And this to holds for military, “technically” a soldier is allowed to voice and act if he/she believes an order is wrong! I say technically because said soldier is under duress once tehy chose the path to take.
Finally, a school administration with some backbone
Ok let me give you my copies of huck finn,catcher in the rye and every other book that catholic schools refuse to allow us to read…
These girls AGREED beforehand not to say the word “vagina”. If they had raised a protest at that time I would have been right there supporting them. However, agreeing to abide by the administration’s decision and then doing what they wanted to do anyway, breaking the agreement they had reached, did not demonstrate the courage of their convictions but a complete disrespect for the school and community in which they live. This has nothing to do with censorship, but with educating young adults to be responsible, stand by their word, and to use proper channels to challenge a decision they find objectionable.
I side with Rich Leprine and his administration. Finally we have someone willing to discipline students for something they should not have done and not back down. The teachers and the administration govern the school not the students. If these young ladies felt it was that important to read that passage ok then take your punishment and move on. Involving the media and the author of the play is going too far. Next thing you know Al Sharpton will be marching up route 35.
So then we need to find out why they agreed then changed their mind.
Dear Principal Rich Leprine
First: Your school and your three students made it to Andy Warhol’s fifteen minutes of fame. The presentation WAS in any case a provocation. Even in our local newspaper, overseas and 6000 miles away, we can read about their suspension. So I was wondering what this was all about and here I am.
Second: I think you give a reasonable explanation for your decision. In particular you had discussed with the students the content of their speech and they agreed not to present these lines from the play. A principal must guide his students and maintain a sound level of authority. As Sharon R. wrote, this is about educating adolescents. They must learn to stand by their word. Anything other than punishing would be worse.
Third: I think the punishment of one day suspension is just one way to handle the situation. But somehow it lacks a bit of originality. You write in your statement that it would be a different issue if the students actually had put on the production of the play and invited an audience.
So why not? If subordination goes on, e.g. if other students appear at school with T-shirts with vagina on them, then punish all of them by committing your students to actually put on the production of the vagina dialogues. Have them do it and they would learn a lot from that. Make them prepare a performance at a high level and make them work on it after regular school hours.
In any case congratulations and if you think you did the right thing, then stand by your decision!!!
RV-Carmel:
The girls didn’t call us—we heard about it from other students and district residents and called them.
Also, we’re the ones who called the play’s author. We did it to get a reaction to the controversy. We’ve talked to her before – notably back in 2002 when Iona College and the College of New Rochelle banned student productions of the play.
Maybe that tidbit should have been addressed in the papers. Thus many of the people saying the kids did it for the attention will realize they did it for themselves.
just my 2 cents.
OK could we have a new subject now? Like why schools have gotten so PC. just think you can get suspended for bullying by calling someone 4 eyes now.
Thats a real good lesson right there…
(dripping sarcasm)
Ohh good. I get to follow my new friend Steve. Here is the long and short of it. Suspension is a travesty. A day detention would of worked just fine. I’m a child of the 60’s. Protest was a class onto ourselves. We protested environmental rights,civil rights,womens rights,the VietNam war,,,which I’m a graduate of. If you dont want to hear it,or see it,a warning should of been issued to those who attend. Much like the warning we see on T,V, for certain shows. Which,by the way I’ve seen parents put their children in front of anyway. We cant change human history,so all you politically correct people get over it. These arent the kids from “The Leave It To Beaver” days and,your parents arent all Wards and June Cleavers. Like all of you didnt cause some ruckus in High School or,the back of your fathers Ford. So,now we all come to the defense of this principal,who doesnt seem to have a backbone. But,there is a more serious side of this story. You have a women or an African-American who have a chance to hold the highest office in the land. You have Condie Rice and Colin Powell. How do you think they had the opportunity to get there. Maybe because some young adult had the courage to open their mouth and buck the trend. I’ll say this. My father was right. I never lived through a Depression. Fought World War 2. But,I did live through the Cold War. VietNam. Nixon. Rioting and burning in the cities of this Country. Killings of JFK,MLK.and Robert Kennedy. What have 80-90% of these high school parents been through? Whats a tough day for them? All this because somebody heard the word “Vagina” Which,I still believe is a medical term for part of the body. As an Marine,I can give you a bunch of others that are worse
Hello everybody,
even though the incident itself might not be a perfect example for cencorship, the huge echo of this story in the media and in the society as a whole tells me the subject “cencorship” is an important subject in the US.
To me as an european it still unbelievable that you have all these “peep”s to cover up the “bad words” on TV. The result are new words like “shoot” or “gosh”.
Here in Germany we have lot´s of problems too, but not with this “sextalk” or with pictures of naked bodyparts on tv (i´m not talking porn here).
Greetings, nikolai
PS: Not to be missunderstood: I have great respect for your country and the american people…
Backbone? Courage?
These words do not apply to the principle. “Cowardly, book-burning, weasel” is a more appropriate description. If was brave, if he was courageous, if he had backbone, he would not have requested the word not be used in the first place, and would have stood both behind and up for his students when the inevitable firestorm hit. Instead, he acted in a manner which would do any Frenchman proud, pre-emptively surrendering and then tossing his students to the wolves. What a great way to teach about things like freedom of speech, moral courage, and the fundamental principles America is allegedly founded upon.
The real problem here, though, is the idea that the word is “offensive” in the first place. See http://www.pontification.com/serendipity/index.php?/archives/166-And-The-Madness-Continues….html
The students deserve applause for going forward with their presentation, knowing it was going to cost them. That is what “brave” people with “backbone” do.
I love my European Cousins, They say everything so well
But what do you call someone that goes against a promise?
To be the devil’s advocate on just one point. If you promise something you should keep it, if you dont believe in the promise then you shouldnt promise . I myself would have never promised not to say it.
I will say this yet again. the girls were wrong for NOT KEEPING a promise.
The principal was wrong for making them promise on a stupid topic.
The fact they did it anyway is brave but also means they are not trust worthy. its a Catch-22. ooh another book they probably ban ;-p
Oh, and another thing. I’m taking down all your names. This will all go on your permanent record. And your all on double secret probation as of this minute
dave, been there done that, also lived the movie.
After reading the article you wrote about the students in John Jay School System who have been suspended from school for reading a passage from the book, “The Vagina Monologue’s� it put me to thinking. It is a sad day when you realize certain educators in America have lost their moral compass or educational understanding. Freedom of Speech means exactly what those three words suggest given the consideration for public safety. I guess the three young women endangered the participants by saying the “Word�. It is extremely sad to think an educator or the other bloggers can honestly believe this is an act of insubordination and this act in an already controlled environment gives him and other readers the right to trump the Freedom of Speech in an educational context. I guess he is concerned more about his position of authority or the how dare they affect on his own ego than the well-being of the students and the progression of their understanding of what American Constitutional Rights are. Next I suppose the book will not be allowed in school because it has the “Word� in it. For that matter maybe we should close down all the health classes and ban the “Word� from being taught. Then the ultimate pinnacle of events will be the book burning in the school square for all to see how bad knowledge of the “Word� can be. Have the years passed so far along our educators and citizens have forgotten the very history they are suppose to pass to our children. The turmoil and hardships faced by our fore fathers and mothers to strike the meaning of Freedom of Speech or Freedom of Religion should not be treaded so lightly. I guess we all have forgotten the religious suppression, imprisonment and imperialistic power they escaped from, in order, to find a land where each person could speak and religiously observe as they saw fit. When we allow our educators to put forth their own egos ahead of our unalienable rights it is at that time every American is in imminent danger. We must never forget what makes this country the greatest experiment of civilized men and women. In this cause we are not just remembering and protecting the statements of Freedom of Speech or Freedom of religion. What we as American’s are protecting are the intangible qualities and conceptual framework for the very bricks these words were set upon. The very deep and personally intuitive meaning as defined by the lives lost and sacrificed by our fore fathers and mothers to end political and religious suppression. We are protecting each and every day the willingness and rights of each and every individual to face the odds and uncertainties life can bring everyday while speaking freely. We have been handed this gift to safe-guard for an eternity. It represents the essence of the moral and personal fiber instilled in every American through the timeless thought penned in our Constitution. So I would say to the educator and other bloggers these simple “Words� get over yourself, swallow your pride and rejoice in what the three young ladies have so painstakingly re-taught what you have obviously forgotten.
I vote Daniel as new principal of John Jay High School. Couldnt of said it better myself
Nick,
I graduated from High School over 20 years ago. I’ll let you do the math. Yes, it is the job of adults to stand up for our youth. As is clear from this incident, they are punished for having a voice of their own.
I spent quite some time reading most of the posts. I like Steve C’s in particular. He is the one who can live with the contradicting aspects of the story.
Steve, you asked to move on to different topics. How about language education?
I find it eye-catching how many of the JJ School students and alumni have serious problems with english grammar and spelling. I read sentences written in a horrible style that I hardly can make sense of.
However no one at all misses the proper spelling of the word “vagina”, they would not miss “nigger”, nor “fuck”, nor “penis” just to list a few. So I read all those comments in this blog with all their shortcomings, but nobody has a problem when spelling these banned words. What should I think about that?
I grew up and live in Switzerland. At home I speak a very local german dialect, with its own vocabulary and its own grammar. There is probably a total of less than 500’000 people who properly understand what I say in my daily life.
The result was that I had to learn foreign languages from a very early age on: I was learning German when I was seven, I was beginning with French at 11 and I started studying English aged 13. I now speak and write fluently a total of four languages.
I have learnt all these foreign languages in public school. The reason why this worked were our teachers: They mantained discipline, they punished when we did not obey. And ghosh, we found many ways not to obey! We were boys after all. Our teachers would not ban us from classes but they would make us learn a poem or write an essay at home and after school. Some of the punishments were a bit less attractive like drilling the conjugation of a difficult french verb.
As an adult I have a hard time learning Spanish, because I began learning on my own lacking drill and discipline.
This is why disobedience in school and in education is such a serious issue. Without it you simply will not achieve the goals of a proper school education.
bravo well said.
to continue the education theme : My dad didnt teach me italian because it was dialect. (neopolitan) which, like your german, is a different language compared to proper italian. whenever given the choice i would request italian to learn in school. and get french instead or spanish. so for many years I spoke both fluently. now 20 years of no use. i speak both just as horribly.
The issue at hand with our schools today have to do with goals. the schools have lost sight because of having to be politically correct. Instead of being a school to teach. Teach the words and explain why they can or cannot be used. Freedom of speech is very important, but this must be tempered with common sense. Unfortunately, common sense has been replaced with being PC.and i dont mean computers ;-]
Well Juerg. Its called “No Child Left Behind” Its also called Jimmy cant read or spell because….A} Jimmys parents dont care B] Jimmy doesnt care c]other d]all the above. Then if Jimmy cant read. Then its the schools fault and,in rush Jimmys lawyers. Which,Switzerland and the European mainland doesnt seem to have. And we in the United States have an abundance. In Illinois along there’s a million lawyers who have nothing better to do than sue all day long. Then Jimmy commits a crime cause Jimmy is uneducated because Jimmy didnt apply himself in school. Poor Jimmy then goes to jail where there’s TV and all sorts of neat things. Jimmy learns from his jail friends. But,its not Jimmys fault because the system let Jimmy down. What should of happened is that Jimmy should of got kicked in his ass. First by his parents and then by his teachers. If Jimmy didnt want to be in school. Bye Bye Jimmy. Oh and Jimmy,no social programs for you. No welfare. No sitting at home eating Bon Bons. Poor Jimmy,the system has let you down. Whaaaah. But,your right Juerg.Your’re all so right.And isnt that a shame? We have 10,000 items printed in 10,000 vocabs for 10,000 cultures. We hear people speak Ebonics all day or some bastardized version of English. And why? We have lawyers. We have bleeding heart crybabies that cry all day long. Its a society where it’s nobodys fault and everybody is a victim of the system. Because there black,or spanish,or poor,or didnt grow up having an IPOD,whatever the case.
Steve C.
Here it is well into the night and I will need to sleep. Maybe we will meet tomorrow and have a bit more to comment from the other bloggers?
hey dave, nice.
I was waiting for someone to blame the lawyers because ya know .. its true. Remember when a person tripped on your stoop. you helped them up or called a doctor they thanked you and no harm no foul. Now you need a 5 million dollar umbrella policy to protect your house from someone that trips on a crack. why? because instead of people watching where they are going they are talking on the phone to their lawyer about how they fell at your house and can they own your house now .
Europe doesnt have this problem. Lawyers who live off everyone’s misery here, wouldnt get the time of day in any court. Geneva or London. They get laughed out. So here we are so over to the side of politically correctness you cant even breathe. What you have here…besides a failure to communicate….is a nice house on the outside. But the foundation is riddled with termites. School is for learning. If you dont respect your teachers then,you dont respect yourself. You also show a disrespect toward your parents. If you dont want to go to school,I’ll solve one of the Presidents problems. He constantly complains if we have reform in our laws concerning illegals then,we wont have anybody to do jobs that Americans dont want. Well,if you dont want to go to school. You dont want to apply yourself. Then,here you go. Dishwasher. Produce picker. Whatever crap job there is. Works for me. No social program except your butt getting a GED. Works for me
And while I’m at it. The rant that is. What did everybody grandparents do when they first got to this Country. They went to school. They couldnt speak the “Kings” english. And,I dont mean people just from Europe. Grandparents from Asia,and Africa,and the Middle East. What did they do in the early 1900’s. Just sit and whine for a social program. No,the got off their collective buttocks and,made something of themselves. I guess its also because there is no extended family anymore. Grandma and Grandpa couldnt care less what their grandson/granddaughter are doing. There too,somebody got up and bucked the system. From sweat shops to slum lords. Somebody,just wouldnt go with the program and,changed the world for good
what we have here is a failure to communicate. great cool hand luke reference.
As far as lawyers what we need here is what europe has, Frivolous law suits protection. Loser pays. if its frivolous and the judge knows it, you lose.
As far as illegals goes. either become a citizen or go home. Oh yeah thats another thing learn english and subsidize it so everyone who lives and works in US speaks the same language, American english. When i hear someone has liuved here for 5-15 years and doesnt know a word of english I get so angry!
I would never be so disrespectful if i were a guest in another country for that long.
Thus,we have come full circle. The ineptness of an entire school system. By the whiners and the politically correct. Backed by lawyers. Has lead to this onslaught. Three girls punished for one word. God forbid,the system wont let them read “Huck Finn” cause it was written over 100 years ago and,has the “N” word in it. God forbid, keep them from drugs,HIV,and sexual predators. God forbid,we can make them better citizens. God forbid,somebody bucks the almighty system. Because”....all and all we are just another brick in the wall…” Teachers who cant teach. Cant pass a simple test. They’re tentured. The Union will protect them.Dont say “Vagina” but,you hear people go “Yo N@#$@r” in the most common of places. Dont hit Tommy cause he pulled a gun on you. No…Tommy is misunderstood. A 1st grader brings a cap gun to school. Expel Him. He’s a danger to Society. Dont reason with him by all means cause “No Tolerance means No Tolerance” Suspend these girls. What did the principal say. “Not because they said the word,its because they disobeyed me.” I dont remember when Principals became such a “father” figure. Steve,you can remember this better than I. The story that we must stop this youth before they become juvenile deliquents. They will become cheap harlots and motorcycle hoodlums. The will be the scourge of society.MMMM,sounds like trouble in River City to me
As I read this Principals Statement to the press. Probably written by the School Boards P.R. person. That this isnt about censorship but community values. Heres a clue you must of missed when you were ill from class. When you tell anybody to omit anything from the written word. Thus,changing the content of that so called written word is censorship. Plain and simple. I just turned on CNN and noticed there was no rioting in the Community over their lost values. Thank God. At least the Gov doesnt have to send in the National Guard
dude dont go by me. I went to an 8 year catlick school run by nuns. if i got hit by the teacher or a conduct slip sent homne, i got hit when i got home. They taught me to be a good little clean child of god. or should i say tried. My parents, being depression era parents taught me how to succeed in life when there was nothing. street smarts and the whole 9. above all else fear and respect ofmy parents. if i said or did something over board i got disciplined.
Today they would call it abuse, at the time i hated it. But ya know something? I came out all right. Go figure. i had everything against me. a school teaching me dogma, parents caring about me. and a government that said yea its up to the parents. Now look, we are all children of rome, your children are children of rome and not your own we can take them away on someone lying and saying u r a bad parent.
So yeah, the kids were wrong for disobeying, the principal was wrong for making them promise, and the government is wrong for empowering schools over parents and lawyers over them and CPS over all. oh well..
We are both products of the “Cat-O-Lick” system. Except,I didnt get enough in elementary school, and then went to a university
Nick: You can argue stupid semantics or logistics or psuedo-legalese for what happened all you want, the point is that the incident was completely absurd. There is NO REASON for ANYONE to NOT SAY the word VAGINA in any context and whenever they want. Apparently you missed my comparison with “knee”, and “eyeball”. A vagina is JUST ANOTHER BODY PART. The only reason for anyone to be offended by the word vagina, is if they are a member of the prudish Christian Right, for whom any mention of sex is strangely offensive, even when referred to in proper biological terms. In a similar vein, if they had wanted to say a prayer and been censored, that would have been similarly wrong. However, if I may insert a little aside, I would reccommend everyone on earth to read The God Delusion, by Richard Dawkins, and Sam Harris’ The End of Faith. So I would like to end this by recommending that everyone who reads this makes a point of saying VAGINA loudly and clearly several times over the course of the rest of the week. Unless of course it makes you uncomfortable. Or you’re afraid children will hear. Or maybe God will hear. He might be angry. I mean, jeez, he sure doesn’t like sex much. What a weirdo.
I was thinking of raising my window and say “I’m mad as Hell. And I’m not going to take it anymore.” But,I decided no. One,being its too damn cold. Two. I live down from a Catholic School. Three. Well,they’ll just lock me up. Now,if I scream Vagina out my window or the Mall. What will happen to me? What will my neighbors think? And do you think the school will have me arrested for some kind of child protection law? Whats your thought?
Now,I read that the suspension has been “put on hold” until the Board meeting Tuesday night. Can you say”lawyer” I knew ya could. And why not make it a bigger circus than it already is. Now,everybody can get involved and on T.V. You know makeup,haircuts,and your best Sunday suits. It takes awhile to get this all together
Dude, dave, what is up with the incoherent postings? If you’re going to take the time to post, at least put spaces between words, for heaven’s sake. And try to make it at least somewhat clear what the hell you’re talking about!
You guys are taking things way over your heads.
Just because one says this one word wouldn’t affect the ‘poor children’ there and scar there lives completely.
Just because one says this ‘cuss’ what makes you think they don’t say it away from the stage, away from the school?
All the children there would OBVIOUSLY learn the word eventually. That’s what school does.
In a society of different people your obviously going to learn let alone from teachers or the facility but from students as well.
Even though I probably don’t even have my saying in this, but
you’re all morons for taking this seriously.
I have had the privilage to know Hannah Levinson. She is a remarkable young woman. I image any company she keeps are as well. How very sad to see bright mature young women held back and reprimanded for being strong.
I have yet to hear of any child or adult being traumatized by the word vagina. This is blantent censorship and immaturity on the part of the principal. These girls will be leaders one day and how lucky we will be to have them taking care of us.
Wear your suspension proudly! The whole permanent record thing is over rated anyway.
“Med..nevermind” – Use your words properly. Otherwise you look like a moron, and no one can take you seriously.
I could not be more proud of these girls for standing up, willing to take the heat surrounding this ridiculous situation. Regardless of whether or not they were asked not to say the word vagina, said it any way and are guilty of “insubordination”; what lies at the very ROOT of the issue is the fact that there is such discomfort with the word VAGINA and that they may have been asked not to say it. This situation is just a reflection of so many feelings in the greater society. Vagina is a perfectly acceptable word to people of any age. It was not used in a derogatory way (when in fact that, and much WORSE are used all the time) and it was not used inappropriately. Maybe if we said it more, people wouldn’t see it as so “taboo”. Because, you know….every woman has one.
Thanks William for pointing out my shortcomings,as well as others on this blog. Its great to see teenagers stand up for something they believe in. Whatever it may be. Alot of Americans cant even get up from their television sets. Of course,there is punishment. But,there always is when you go against the flow.
Actually, I think both sides are right.
The principal has an obligation to all parents and their sensibilities. I for one would not want to start a conversation with my child about what is a vagina before I am ready.
On the other hand I applaud the girls for a very well done reading. The new womens lib anthem.
I would have done the same in their shoes. They have a bright future ahead of them
Dave ( the other one ).
Clearly, the young women are courageous and correct in dealing with a principal who is short-sighted, dictatorial, and a complete horse’s ass. He is the one who should be suspended for his high-handedness; gross ignorance; and befuddled notions of what is appropriate for public discussion.
Jack Weiss…what are you talking about? The principal did the right thing. By the way, you are really innappropriate. Obvioulsy you havent learned your manners. I thought it was extremely innappropriate and it offended us as women.
I’m offended by all this offense.
DEIRDRE: First, please learn that 17 year old women have every right -
especially in this country in 21st century- to mention their body parts using correct anatomical names. If you are offended, then please see a therapist and get some help for your hangups. Next, my manners are appropriate and correct—there are more important things for this pompous principal to worry about. How does mentioning a vagina in public insult women? You should grow up and learn that discussion is ok, despite this fool principal’s desire to act as a petty dictator. Finally, why don’t you get some education and learn how to spell.Deidre, if you, as a woman, are offended by the public use of the word vagina, there are only two possibilities. You are either a member of the Christian Right, and a total prude, or you are not ACTUALLY a woman. Think about that.
Though i am enjoying this conversation immensely please show the lady a modicum of respect. She voiced her opinion as we all did. disagree if you must but be civil.
I can not beleive that most people do not back the principal. Where was the parents and the community when the principal asked them not to say it.
These girls are obviously starving for attention and thought that the shock value of saying the word vagina would make them seem cool. I can tell you this, in their million dollar homes they have no idea about censorhip, hardship or equality.
It is also my freedom to speek to my 6 year old child about the word Vagina when I see fit. It is not some bratty kid yes kid’s decision to say the word in a forum that I would hope is controlled. I also can’t wait for the day when they make a promise to their parents to not take the car, to not drink and drive, to not shoplift.
In reference to the military, you do take orders, you do not answer back. In reference to the job yes it is a private place and yes you do have the power to terminate due to what a person says. That is the whole point of molding these children to keep their mouths shut and learn how to fight their battles properly. Not with some knee jerk reaction. And please don’t even try to compare these kids to Selma, back of the bus, womens freedom. They went home and wathched themsleves on all 6 T.V.s in their home from the money they have from their parents education that was all based on this principals theories.
Kudos to the principal, keep up the good work I am proud to have you help raise our children. Yes help raise, he is considered a parent and a damn good one.
The principal of the school may have a right to ban a performance however he does not have the right to change copyrighted material without permission from the author. When he gave permission to present “The Vagina Monologues�, he inadvertently gave permission to say the word or force the girls to break rules of copyright. Vagina is not an obscene word that can be banned. Just who is John Jay and the answer to that question is the reason why the girls did the right thing in saying the word.
Tim says he does not understand why most people don’t back the principal. For my part, I don’t understand why he and others do. We have here a complete inability of minds to meet. I suspect it all boils down to whether you think young people should have the same rights of expression as the rest of us do. I for one think they do. They are not soldiers subject to military discipline. They are citizens in a society and I for one think they enjoy exactly the same constitutional protections as everyone else does. The only justification for restricting their speech would be exactly the same justification for restricting anyone else’s speech: say, the standard yelling-fire-in-a-crowded-theater scenario. Maybe the principal and his backers have no personal experience of tyranny—of what happens to a society that divides people into different categories and denies the rights of free speech to some.
George Musser
Gee,I cant wait for Tuesday night. It should be a hoppin board meeting. But,I find it funny that the men are at each other throats. That most of the women,on the other hand,agree that this is a travesty. I think it has alot to do with age. And the perception one has recieved from his/her parents.And the breach between generations.I’m going out on a limb here and say Tim is a young father.Mainly,because he mentioned his 6 year old. And is part of a generation that is far removed from the one I was part of. Which is ok. As a veteran who fought for this Country,I find anything or anybody who tramples the Bill of Rights or the Constitution,need to be called on it. And,it seems other people. Even our Swiss cousins. Deem it important to
THOSE FUCKING GIRLS ARE ALL ATTENTION STARVED. NO ONE GETS IT. THERE IS RULES AND REGULATIONS IN SCHOOLS, AND IF YOU DON’T OBEY THAN YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE CONSEQUENCES.YOU NEED TO THINK BEFORE YOU DO! IT’S NOT ALL FUN AND GAMES HERE. I HATE OUR WORLD. AND I HATE JOHN JAY COMMUNITY. YOU ALL SUCK. I BACK THE ADMINISTRATION COMPLETLEY…AND THE QUOTE WAS SO DISRESPECTFUL TO WOMEN. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU WHO THINK THIS IS GOOD!
“hese girls are obviously starving for attention and thought that the shock value of saying the word vagina would make them seem cool. I can tell you this, in their million dollar homes they have no idea about censorhip, hardship or equality.”
I BACK TIM AND fgk;jgd COMPLETLEY. no one knows what they are talking about now a day’s. SERIOUSLY GET SOME LIVES!!!!!!!!!!!!!
dflshfsugf it seems like your fishing for attention. A little vagina envy I suspect.
This is where we start playing some good Socialist music in the background
I got post number 69
Going back to what I am saying. I only refered to Military because others do. I do believe our children have a freedom to voice an opinion. I do not believe that the children have the freedom to say anything they want. And I REALLY don’t beleive that children have the freedom to make a promise in a professional enviorement and then decide nah let’s do it anyway. If these girls were as liberated and educated as all say the first thing they would of done is question why, spoke on how strongly they felt and brought up freedom of speach. No it took the parents to point that one out. So not smart enough to stand up for yourself, not smart enough to question authority. And when these girls not their parents decide to pay $17,000.00 a year in property taxes then go ahead and let them speak up. Until them seen not heard!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
This is why our society is going to hell in a hand bag. Do you think this is about the word vagina you are crazy. If their parents want them to have freedom of speach then let them curse all you want at your country club. I am sure the board there thinks your raising a promising American future. Look into and understand the issue at hand.
First off three weeks ago John Jay had a play where a young kid faked an orgasm. Well we know what happened there. The parents were in an uproar with non stop calls. So the principal or as all of the nay sayers like to categorize him as “whipping post” decided to think things out the next time. So let’s crucify the principal for making an educated adult decision. Or lets do a one day in school detention to three girls who obviously have no regard for authority. And as I see it neither do the parents.
You know you are going to run out a principal with ethics with care for your children and for society in a whole and end up with some liberal idiot who decides that it’s O.K. for your daughters to walk the school with only bras on since boys can wear tank tops.
GOOD LUCK TO YOU!!!!!!!!!!!
A promise made under duress is not a promise that needs to be kept.
The section that caused the issue
My short skirt is a liberation
flag in the women’s army
I declare these streets, any streets
my vagina’s country.
When I drop the word vagina
My short skirt is a liberation
flag in the women’s army
I declare these streets, any streets
my country.
changes the meaning beyond what the author would allow, from a feminist political statement to a patriotic political statement. This is a cause for concern.
Who was John Jay and now what is the meaning of irony.
In an effort to convince delegates from the key state of New York to vote for ratification of the Constitution, Jay collaborated with James Madison and Alexander Hamilton on writing a series of eighty-five essays that explained and defended the Constitution. The essays, collectively called the Federalist Papers, were written in the form of anonymous letters to New York newspapers and are considered the authoritative commentary on the Constitution. Read Hamilton’s “General Introduction” to the Federalist Papers (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/const/fed/ fedpapers.html) and select one of the remaining eighty-four essays to study in-depth. Present to the class the arguments offered in support of the Constitution in your chosen essay.
You know I keep reading all these blogs in reference to constitutional rights, who’s afraid to here or say vagina, how these girls stood up for what they believe. What do they believe? They believe that the streets are owned by their vagina. Please come on, this is a 15 year old girl talking. If a statement like this was made to a girl of this age by an adult would it be proper? Do you have the freedom to talk like this to a 9 year old girl? Do you have the freedom to say to a group of children that my penis controls the universe? Well if you don’t then why should they? I don’t think this is what James Madison had in mind. Do you? Thank God it wasn’t the girls promising to bring the ink to the signing of our countries declaration. Think about the stupidity of this whole thing to allow a child to try to make a fool of an adult. Where are our morals. I am no conservative, I am not Christian Right. I am an average guy raising a family. Your arguments are not even close to the point at hand. And to bring up our Swiss cousins. This country couldn’t make a decision either way if it bit them. Even if we put the whole worlds worth of illegal drug money in their banks they still couldn’t decide.
To say that these children have the same rights as an adult is crazy. Let them say what they want when they hit the age they can fight for this country, pay taxes, serve on a jury as opposed to go to their frinds Bat Mitzvah at the country club. Until then let them disrespect their own parents in their own home.
And please don’t even try to compare teaching about sexuality to this so called erotica. I have an idea let’s bring playboy into the classrooms. I know everyone reads that for it’s great political satire ~ ha!! And hey it’s only showing what’s natural.
To bring up “decisions in duress” is absurd. When that statement was made it was not talking about three kid’s at their high school trying to slide one past their principal to get a rise out of people. These kid’s wouldn’t know duress if it jumped out of their high hedges, while driving their beamer back from the mall.
Give me a break. Find something better to fight for. Maybe inner city poverty, rape, children starving. I’m sorry but then it would not be all about these martyr’s we found. And parents of these children stop trying to live through them. Grow up face the fact’s your raising brats!!!!
I notice a parent was criticized for describing Leprine as an embarassment—not a respectful thing to say—and I guess we could censor the word “embarassmentâ€? as well. Though like vagina, it is technically correct description of the situation. Why do you think there has been all of this media coverage? Because the action is so out of touch, particularly in the context of education, and particularly in New York. It has even conservatives shaking their heads in disbelief. And the subterfuge about insubordination being the issue is actually worse. At the end of the day I suppose someone could believe in their heart of hearts that it is the right thing for a community to try to prevent teenagers from using a particular word in a public forum, though the rest of the world might disagree. But taking it to the next step and actually imposing a punishment for an act of speech is the real crime here. Why not have a conversation with the girls and say “I am disappointed with your choice but I understand that you felt strongly,â€? and leave it at that? That is what a reasonable administration would do, end of discussion. The girls did not commit an act of violence or endanger themselves or anyone else or interfere with anyone’s right to education (quite the opposite). The sad reality is that when the media has gone away, besides the fact that this is what people will remember and associate with this school system, our students will be left with the same poor judgment and hyper-punishing mentality. JJHS punishes first and asks questions later: they routinely (and I do not use that word carelessly) make mistakes and act quickly to punish the students for those mistakes. Thus informing students whose parents dutifully mailed in emergency contact information cards in August that the students would have to stay after school for detention as the school did not have a card on file for themâ€â€why? Because someone in the administration lost or misfiled the cards. Same thing for students who did not have a signed technology use agreement in their files. We’ve received phone calls informing us that our student “skippedâ€? a class when she did not, and she was in school and in class that day. Quite a few students will tell you about a counselor who puts students names on a call list to come down to the office to see her at a particular time (requiring them to miss part of a class) and, when she gets there, asks them why they are there. I have no problem with small mistakes, administrative mistakes, and even, at the end of the day, with a principal’s decision that 95% of people including me disagree with. The real problem is the reaction of the school in these kinds of situations. Over time, it is demoralizing and breeds cynicism among students who see it for what it is. A blog on the Washington Post website put it accurately: “it seems the only thing the school achieved through this fiasco (other than giving the trio a kick-ass topic for their college essays), was to educate students and remind parents that bureaucracies care more about protecting their authority than accommodating the public they were designed to serve.â€? I hope hope hope that this will be a wake-up call to the school district and high school administration: they are here for the students, not the other way around.
Tim
I assume your mentioning of drug money and Swiss banks is a bit off topic. Also I am not quite sure in what context you raised the issue. On the whole I agree with your posts and see no reason to contradict.
In any case with regard to criminal money in our banks Switzerland was the first country in the world to have working legislation against laundering money, 20 years ago.
If our goverment catches drug money in our banks, then they can seize it and it belongs to the Swiss Federation. Happened once or twice in recent years and as far I remember there were a few 100 million dollars in it.
So in case you know of some more such drug money in our baks, please write a short letter to the Swiss Embassy in Washington, D.C. I do not love too much paying taxes and if big time drug traders may contribute, they are welcome.
Well let’s talk about the today show. What a bunch of crap. This was not about the word as we all see. The suspension was about “we chose option three”. Well there was no option three. And who are they to chose option three. The word vagina could not even been said without the girls giggling how mature. Three brats get a day off . More power to them.
In closing if it was about censorship how come the kid who said the f word was not suspended. Oh that’s right it was not about censorship it was about three girls going back on their word. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
Tim, I missed the part about the kid who said the “f-word?”
Food? Actually a little girl got suspended from school,in haverstraw, for talking about where babies come from. granted she was in 2nd grade or whatever, but why suspend the girl? find out and talk to her. dont just suspend her… I just dont get it.
actually i believe the detail was how mommies get pregnant as well. I will have to ask my source again about the details. But still its ridiculous.
Hello everyone,
Thanks so much for your lively debate on this topic! I am looking for someone from Katonah-Lewisboro who supports the principal’s decision and is willing to go on the record. I have tried contacting a few people privately via e-mail, but haven’t gotten any responses. Please e-mail me at dcostell@lohud.com with your daytime phone number and I will contact you today, March 9.
Many thanks,
Diana
Tim, what incenses me about this case is that principal calls the girls’ actions “insubordination”. Call them “inappropriate” or “deceitful” (for going back on their word) or what have you, but it is not insubordinate. The students are not his subordinates. When the principal so clearly does not respect his students, is it any surprise that they do not respect him in return?
George
Diana, i think the bigger issue is not taking sides. Both sides were wrong for different reasons. I think the reporting should be on that issue. The fact literature could not be quoted in a school. all they had to do was send out a warning to parents. They were both wrong in my opinion.
Steve
In refernce to the little girl in second grade. We all know children blurt out things that are edgy. I agree do not suspend a little girl for saying something that could have been considered bad. She did’nt know at the time that it could be bad. These girls had the chance, the whole day, to consider the consequences and choose to do it anyway. I am not saying the word vagina is bad. Why are most colleges telling students if they want to do this play it has to be done off campus? Because of the manner in which it is used. And why when they were interviewed this morning did they giggle at the mention of the word vagina but not rape, elbow or any other word? Because they do not themselves embrace the word but use it for shock value.
Someone help me here. I deal with union employees daily. If I was to tell an employee (an adult!!) to do something that is not in their job duty and they question it. I then tell them to do it anyway. They must do it then grieve later. If they disregard me they can be terminated. Please teach these girls a lesson before it becomes a bigger problem down the line.
How ironic! The play is all about attitudes to women’s sexuality – how funny that this has been, in fact, the best way to illustrate the point.
I too work with Union Employees and if I were to tell them to do work outside their classification I have to pay them extra for the work. If I were to order them to do work they are not “supposed to ” be doing my management would suspend me.
In a larger sense it is Ironic that at a school named after a father of this nation’s right to free and unfettered speech (and desent) that this issue is even up for discussion.
Two of my children attend school in Ireland and I can tell you that they would never have this issue in a class or in presenting a play or readings from a play. My youngest daughter is an actor and is 17 and has acted in several plays that would be banned in a US HS with-out even a peep from the community with exception of critical reviews based on the presentation. If fact we look foolish when we claim that we are the most free nation in the world.
Joe
I agree that here in European countries you can use your words without being hanged for them. I did the test yesterday to see what happens if I mention my penis in public.
I was in the supermarket and the cashier asked me “do you have our customer card?” This is the kind of a card that will return half a percent discount of all of your purchases at the end of the year. The catch is that the chain of shops keeps a database of what you bought, when you bought it, where you bought it.
Acutally and honestly I am tired of being asked this same question each and everytime I shop. Also I think that it is up to the customer to present the card if he wants to cash in on the discount. To me this question is just harassment.
In any case I answered to the lady who as quite a few years older than I am: “I thought you would consider me grown up.” Like a drone she repeats her question: “Do you have our customer card with you.” I answered “yes madam, I shook off the last remaining drops from my penis when I went to pee this afternoon. And yes madam, I properly tied my shoes when I left home.”
The reaction telling from her face was confusion, not embarassment. She did not expect this response. Next to me in line was a man in his thirties just kept smiling.
Now, I have travelled quite a few places in the US. I would not on earth dare to pull such a stunt there. I would never feel safe that I won’t right away get arrested and jailed for the next few weeks.
Still I think it is a matter of obeying when the school staff tells a student not to do it, then she is supposed not to do it. Also I assume as Tim does, it was just about pulling a fast one on their teachers,not about the one word.
And yes Tim, if these teenagers were to stand up for something, then they would defend their position by themselves and they would have their parents defend them.
Sorry, mistyped my last post:
The last paragraph is supposed to be read as follows:
And yes Tim, if these teenagers were to stand up for something, then they would defend their position by themselves and they would have their parents defend them.
Sorry, mistyped my last post:
The last paragraph is supposed to be read as follows:
And yes Tim, if these teenagers were to stand up for something, then they would defend their position by themselves and they would NOT have their parents defend them.
Joe,
I am only bringing up the point that these girls think it is O.K. to question authority. In life there will be consequences. And by the way if I had a leak say in a bathroom, flooding and area and was to ask an employee to help me with this issue and they refused because it is not their job they can be terminated. And yes I do have to pay more but the issue is not the unionjob the issue is in any work enviorenment. I brought up union due to the relationship that union – managers have. Although an authority figure as a manager is traditionally not liked the employee must still follow guidelines. Even worse in a non union position. So once again what are we teaching these girls.
Yes freedom of speach is great. Please remember as you put it your tired of hearing the lady at the register say the same thing. Is the question the lady at the register asking harrasement or freedom of speach. Please someone explain to me why nobody backed Kramer when he screamed the “n” word twenty times. Why, because they find the word offensive. So does the right of many declare that something is offensive or the right of the one person in the audience that just might not want to hear the word VAGINA. Where do we draw the line. Let’s start with our future, our children and teach them that maybe to blurt something out in a controlled public forum might be offensive to that one person and they should respect everyone. These people did not pay a ticket to go see Vagina Mono. They went to see their children read poetry.
To diverse these kids laughed in the face of authority plain and simple.
The school is not the workplace and the rules for the workplace do differ. The girls are learning a life lesson and it is that is is good to dessent. That one person in a puplic forum called “Open Microphone” is not expecting the word vagina so it should not be said what about me I might not want to hear Shakespeare talk about his ED problems when he talks about dying in a womans lap. (To die in her lap) There might be a line not to cross but saying Vsgina is not it.
One more thing. When authority does things that are laughable, we, all of us including children, have an obligation to dissent or even ignore them. How else do they know they have done wrong.
Tim
As I said in my posts: In particular in education it is vital that the teachers and their principal maintain a sound level of authority. Teaching anything, math, language skills does not work if you do not accept the authority of your teachers. Else too much time would be wasted.
It was the staffs decision, they were on the spot, it is their task to make a decision. This is why I find it so incredible that people external to the setting turn it into a discussion of freedom of speech.
Even if their decision was not a wise one, they were on the spot, it was their task to decide. There are so many youngsters, there is such a huge need for a continous supply of teachers. We can not expect all of them to be the masters of the wisdom of this universe. We can however expect teachers to do their work and to make decisions when they have to. After the decision is made the only wise thing for parents is to side the teachers and tell their children to stick to what they are told to do or then to accept the consequences.
If the parents feel it was important enough to question the decision of a teacher, then they still can do it without damaging his status of authority: They can request a closed meeting with him. They can discuss it with the staff without involving the children.
Juerg,
Kudos to you I agree 100%. In this world today it’s not about ethics or supporting a principal who has to make these decisions 100 times a day. It’s about shock value and getting yourself on T.V.
If it was me I would do the same as you proposed. I would also as their parent have a strong sit down with my children. I would explain that in life we will make decisions and if we want to go against a promise there will be consequences. And as an adult you made your bed now lye in it. Stop complaining. I know as a parent bigger kids, bigger problems. I feel for these misguided children.
Joe,
I can not wait for you to raise children of your own. If you even understood the consequences of making a promise and not keeping it you would think differently.
These girls have not only lied to the principal but also you. On the first day they said they were told not to say it but then choose to say it. Now they were offered A & B and they choose C. Which one is it Lawyer says whichever one they want. Old enough to disregard the principal. Not old enough to fight this complete battle on their own.
Lets take a look at option C in life
A- Don’t drink and drive
B- Do drink and drive
C- DIDN’T DRINK THAT MUCH NOT FAR TO DRIVE
A- Pay the mortgage
B- Don’t pay the mortgage
C- Pay half the mortgage – Lose my house
A- Get a job
B- Don’t get a job
C- Live off of Daddy
A- Steal your parents car
B- Don’t steal your parents car
C- Steal it but don’t let anyone know
So continue to applaud these girls and then look in disbelief when they are not succesful.
Freedom of speech is determined after the fact by the court system. In this case, Tinker probably applies. A second legal issue is using copyrighted material and changing the meaning of that material by deleting the word. Again, another legal issue. Both of these issues have been run through the court system repeatedly and the loser is generally the school or other government. The school principal was not under any stress to make a original decision, courts have already done that for him. He should be aware of all the legal issues as principal of the school and apply them regardless of outside pressure.
Tim I have three daughters and one son. My son graduated form US San Diego and teaches English in China.. My oldest daughter graduated for US Santa Cruz and works for Toyota and travels to Japan once or twice a year for the company. My middle daughter teaches autistic children and is a graduate of Queens College Cork, and will be attending graduate school in London. My youngest daughter will be at DePaul “The Theater School” next year. I would have been very proud if my daughters did the same thing. In fact I would have had them write essays explaining to me why they bowed to pressure from a minor government official.
So you tell me that these girls know these laws. No,it is a witch hunt. Everybody talks about laws and freedom of speach. Nobody talks about the question at hand. They made a promise and they did not keep it. Do not even bring up promises under duress.
And also did anyone watch this mornings interview when they made a joke out of going to the today show as opposed to meeting with the superintendent. Again I guess we know where their priorities are and the parents priorities.
Queens College in Cork good for you. Let’s talk about animal rights.
Lets take a look at the real option C in life
A- Don’t drink and drive
B- Do drink and drive
C- I called a cab
A- Pay the mortgage
B- Don’t pay the mortgage
C- Sell the house before you need to fall into foreclosure
A- Get a job
B- Don’t get a job
C- This is a hard one, the choice is not always as black and white as you make it out. I supported my children and paid for all the food, board, tuition, and expenses when they went off to college. Now they are fully functional adults (except the youngest she is 17) with minimal debt load. I felt it is my obligation.
A- Steal your parent’s car
B- Don’t steal your parents car
C- Buy my own car.
The thing here is that the principal should of given them a detention and scolding them behind closed doors. When,I protested in the late 60’s,mind you,I was given a one day detention. Which we all served with honor. Didnt whine. Didnt complain. Just moved on. We werent even offered a suspension. And mommy and daddy werent called.So,how do we know they werent bullied in the process? We dont yet. But,Tim let me say that being rich,or Jewish,or Wasp doesnt prevent you from thinking. We arent asking that the principal be taken out and hung.One day,your children will test the bounds of authority. Maybe,not to this extreme. But,they will. Because thats what teenagers do. They drink. They experiment with drugs. They drive faster than the speed limit. Everybody on this blog has done it. Its the rite of passage. So is dissent. John Jay did it. The signers of the Declaration did it. They were all dissenters. To say a teenager has no thought or opinion,is like saying the sun comes up in the west. it just isnt so. Everyday you moan,groan,complain about somebody,or something in this Country. You sow the seeds of dissent. It just doesnt go anywhere most of the time. Thus,we have three girls who voiced there dissent, That reading a copyrighted passage from a book and,omitting a word because you dont like it,is censorship.Maybe,they had a thought.Maybe they realized it was wrong. Maybe they did it on their own.Would it be better Tim,that these girls would of been middle class or poor? Because you seemed biased toward the rich. Or,at least strongly dislike them.
Joe. Great school DePaul. Great theatre school. And,its not because I went there. I wish her good luck
Although this will not be my last comment. I do not need to know the law to have it protect me not do i have to pay a cent in tax to exercise my freedoms.
BTY that was supposed to be UC SAn Diego and UC Santa Cruz not US …....
its sad that this is what some women have sunk to in our society—to be defined soley by their vaginas. the word vagina is not offensive, but “The Vagina Monologes” is. It is clearly adult material that has no place at an open mic reading where young children might be present. Is nothing sacred anymore? do we really feel good or empowered by shouting the word vagina into a microphone, or is this just another shocking incident that gets someone on the “today show”?
Eve Ensler is not a great writer or a role model for young women. she’s nothing more than an over sexed exhibitionist, who has fooled young girls into believing they should be defined by their vaginas. and these poor misguided young women are nothing more than spoiled brats who most likely always get their way. good luck to their parents.
Theresa you miss the point of the play. Women are not defined by their vaginas in the play. I have seen the play or rather heard it read in part by Ensler and I agree it may not be the best play or book but not all that bad either. It is in fact us men who define women by their vagina’s. I gather by your comments that you know these kids by declaring then spoiled misguided brats or are you talking out of your cunt ahhh ass..
The Ward and June Cleaver lifestyle is long gone. Nothing is sacred anymore. Just sit in front of your television and you’ll find that out. Its also not about shouting something into a mic. Its about banning a word from a written manuscript. You wouldnt put up with it if you wrote a report at work and,your boss came by and edited it because he didnt like what you said. Maybe you wrote about shoddy workmanship. Dangerous conditions. Or just something you deemed important but he didnt like. What would you do then? If you say nothing. Your lying to me and your lying to yourself. Movies and books are made out of these stories.
Dave when you say “Nothing is sacred anymore” I disagree. If nothing was sacred there would be little to talk about. The problem is the most restrictive person is what defines what the rest of us can see or hear. The best was to protect children is to not restrict what or how language is used. I never restrict what my kids say or heard or read and that has worked well for me. I have well spoken reasonably behaved adult children. Hell, one of my girls read “Into a Black Sun” when she was in 6th grade. That sparked some difficult conversations.
Just to note another item the No Children Left Behind stuff. There is only one way to ensure no child is left behind and that is to lower the standard until all are at the same lowest level. I think it is more reasonable to shoot for about a 70% not left behind. Close to what the pass rate was in the 50’s and 60’s.
I agree Joe
My fellow country persons,
It is not about disliking the girls but taking consequences for their action. I mention Bar/Bat Mitzvahs and now I will mention Sweet Sixteens because we live in a society where these children have no regard for adults or property and require security guards at these special occasions to stop them from damaging property. This is due to the parents wanting to be at the bar and dance with the 18 year old hired dancers as opposed to take ownership for their childrens actions.
Joe this is not about copywrights. Singers and actors do it all the time. So please do not tell me you can’t change a word in a song, poem or story without legal action against you.
I would also like to reach out to William Schubert. Lets put these words in perspective, knee, eyeball, arm, ear, vagina. See if we can all play along. Let’s pick out the only word that was covered up when the girls gave their speach.
So in society have we really embraced our CHILDRENS VAGINA. This disgust’s me. And all that can’t see this really need to get your heads examined. This play came from a woman who is laughing all the way to the bank and has no regard for women, their privacy and class.
Lets also talk about the protest blog. That is exactly what these girls should have done. Stand outside and protest the open mike night due to censorship. Then maybe they might of had a leg to stand on.
THIS WAS NOT A PROTEST OF CENSORSHIP BUT A COMPLETE DISREGARD FOR OTHERS AND AUTHORITY!!!!!!
Parents where are you at Lobster Night? Raise your children.
“Joe this is not about copyrights. Singers and actors do it all the time. So please do not tell me you can’t change a word in a song, poem or story without legal action against you.”
Not at all. Even in the smallest dance school for children if it is copyrighted you don’t use it without permission. That is why so many schools put on the same old stuff, it is all in the public domain so no fee needs to be given. Most Authors allow for some use of the material by educators. make hit song and use some part of another artist and you will pay and pay and pay. The laws of copyright protect the Author from those who wish to misuse their work and the publisher get his full due. See RIAA.
Wow.
What i’m reading here is that the word “vagina” is “offensive” and that we all have to protect to our communities and schools from hear it in order to preserve their good images.
So, the education in that school includes that people under 18 can’t say “vagina”. Great. Let’s do that they understand this fact clearly: if some students think that their human rights include the “insubordination” of saying the real names of some part of their bodies, we can control this with a punishment. Of course, these students should understand that they don’t have a vagina until they get married or are 18 years old: vaginas are only a subject of adults.
And even more: in a case of abuse, right now they know that they can’t talk about it because is not permitted to refer to their vaginas. That a vagina is a theme that can make them get a punisment.
Well, for me this was completelly case of violence. I hope the students can find an alternative place to present this excellent play and get a lot of congrats for their courage.
Wow it is not that girls can’t say the word vagina. Say it all you want as Tim says. In their own home, country club and house of worship. As a matter of fact let them get up on the pulpit and discuss the vagina mono. Discuss their vaginas country with their granparents at the dinner table. Discuss vagina mono at a funeral. You would not because there is a time and a place for everything. The principal decided that this was not the time and the place and the parents should stand behind the principal.
Finally the word Vagina is not at all offensive. As a matter of fact it is the only proper way the female organ should be described. It is also OK to say Jackass when referring to a donkey not talking about your grandfather. It is OK for a chritstian to say Jesus Christ but not when you stub your toe. So do me favor tell your children to watch their mouths around my children. What these girls need is a bar of soap.
Joe,
I think you do not know what you are talking about. It was and is done all the time on Saturday Night Live, Mad T.V. ETC.
The girls did not have permision to do the vagina mono at all. So what is your point of copyrights anyway.
Keep reaching guys
John. Sorry you were ill the both times you took the Constitution tests. Heres a link where you can reread it http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html.. One on copyright law http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode17/usc_sup_01_17.html
and one on the meaning of censorship http://www.wordreference.com/definition/censorship
Get back to me John when you have a better defense.Because yours wouldnt hold an eyedropper of water in a State or Federal court. As a matter of fact also,my Church. The Catholic Church has discussed the V.M. The reason its not on the pulpit, compared to any other country,is that America has a giant Puritan streak running through it. Lead by whatever flavor of the moment. And,in my home when I was growing up. As well as my friends home. There were two bad subjects to talk about. In my house,around my relatives,was the evil of the Catholic Church. In my friends house,strange to say because it still goes on today,sex. I just want to know what you people have done lately to make a change? Gone to Iraq? Helped for a month in New Orleans? Served in a soup kitchen? Anything to make your community better or,do you just sit in front of your television,and use your First Amendment Right of Free Speech. Let me point out also that….and you might not want to accept the fact. Children have rights.Now you cant give an 8 y/o the rights of a 16 y/o. But its true. And teenagers dont like to be called children. Tends to tick them off. And John,I dont know your children. They’re probably great kids. Dont sell them short…they know more than you ever thought they did. Especially if they are older than 14.
Saturday Night Live, Mad T.V. ETC all of those programs have teams of lawyers to deal with copyright. I think I see at least one place where we seem to differ and that is that I do not think of a Principal of a school as the end all nor is my boss or much or any other earthly being and you do.
I hope I don’t offend the million of children who surf the Net if the label “penis-breath” comes to mind.
MensNet TV will replay its Vagina Monologues program Friday 16th at 9pm Cablevision channel 22 in the northeastern part of Westchester county.
I am the first person to believe in women’s rights and freedom of speech but it seems that the thing that is being forgotten is that these girls were asked beforehand not to use the word vagina and told the principal that they would not. What about questioning their integrity – that they went back on their word?
I really enjoyed it myself because it was so very true and I think it was really what people needed to hear.
I thought some of you might be interested in reading my latest entry… Check it out at the homepage: hallmonitor.lohudblogs.com
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